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avatar #16
v3ktor 2013. szeptember 6. 206 hozzászólás 1686.
Válasz n1ven #15. hozzászólására
Hihetetlen miket tud előidézni egy 5 soros cikk. C:
Nekem tetszik hogy itt is érvényesül az "ész érvek" VS. "nem, mert nem" ellentét. Zseniális!
avatar #15
n1ven 2013. szeptember 5. 466 hozzászólás 840.
Hihetetlen miket tud előidézni egy 5 soros cikk. C:
avatar #14
Underyx 2013. szeptember 5. 83 hozzászólás 3159.
Válasz hanz1to #13. hozzászólására
Az emberek (nezok) tobbseget nem erdeklik a reszletek. Szamukra ennyi a lenyeg: laggol vagy sem?!

Ha barmilyen stream ala belepve nem azt latnam/lattam volna, hogy minden masodik chatelo azt irja, hogy bakker de laggol nalam, akkor en sem irtam volna ide semmilyen kommentet.
Na szóval akkor fogaljuk össze mi történt itt:

1. Írsz egy felháborodott kommentet, hogy miért ezzel foglalkoznak, dolgozzanak inkább a lag megszűntetésén, és vegyenek új szervereket.
2. Én válaszul megpróbálom tudomásodra hozni, hogy nem csak hogy eleve állítanak fel új szervereket, hanem az itt leírt fejlesztéseik is azért vannak, hogy a lag problémáját megoldják.
3. Te erre leírod, hogy te nem érted ezeket a fejlesztéseket, szóval biztos hülyeségek(?), és végül azt mondod, hogy amúgy egyáltalán is nem érdekel téged, hogy dolgoznak-e rajta(??), hiába azért jöttél ide, hogy tudasd velünk, szerinted dolgozniuk kéne ezen. Ezen felül forrásnak megjelölsz pár random embert Twitch chatről(???), hogy nehogy valaki kételkedjen a szavadban.

Már az se igazán jó dolog, ha tudatlanságból eredően háborogsz, de az, hogy elmagyarázom neked az egészet és még mindig folytatod, az már tényleg túlzás. És eddig még arra rá se tértem, hogy mindezek ellenére te még mindig meg vagy győződve róla, hogy egy havi 40 millió látogatóval rendelkező oldal technikusainál te igenis jobban értesz hozzá, ezután pedig még elvileg én vagyok a "wannabeszaki".
avatar #13
hanz1to 2013. szeptember 5. 396 hozzászólás 999.
Válasz Underyx #10. hozzászólására
És épp ez az amivel problémám van, ezt írtam eleve az első kommentemben is; ha nem jársz utána a dolgoknak, ne szólogass be tudatlanul senkinek és semminek.
Az emberek (nezok) tobbseget nem erdeklik a reszletek. Szamukra ennyi a lenyeg: laggol vagy sem?!

Ha barmilyen stream ala belepve nem azt latnam/lattam volna, hogy minden masodik chatelo azt irja, hogy bakker de laggol nalam, akkor en sem irtam volna ide semmilyen kommentet.
- van az ugy, hogy bebasz a gebasz -
avatar #12
Underyx 2013. szeptember 5. 83 hozzászólás 3159.
Válasz hello_kitty #11. hozzászólására
Igen, 5 PETAbyte (5000 terrabyte) havi forgalom mellett annyiba kerül. De ne feledjük, hogy egy átlagos tf2 műsör, 480p, 627mb. És a 720p? Ha most azt tekintjük, hogy ebben a pillanatban uszkve 200.000 ember néz twitchet és csak mindegyikük csak az általad példában hozott mennyiséget tölti le, akkor mindjárt ott tartunk, hogy az bizony 120 terrabyte, amit fél óra alatt, kötött csomagsorrendben kell eljuttatni a 200.000 felhasználóhoz. Sajnos annó a netet nem ilyen természetű adatforgalomra tervezték. És akkor még nem beszéltünk arról, hogy nekik nem meglévő tartalmat kell hostolni, hanem dinamikus tartalmat, amiket ugye szintén kötött sorrendben kell fogadni és meg fel kell dolgozni, ütemezni és eljuttatni több szervergépre. Ha minden jól meg, akkor néhány miliszekundum, de ha egy csomag elvész? Na akkor jön az akadozás, lag és a többi. Szóval nem ennyire banálisan egyszerű a dolog, valamint a reklámbevételekre alapozva nem lehet egy szerverparkot megvenni, üzemeltetni vagy épp szolgáltatótól bérelni.
>Igen, 5 PETAbyte (5000 terabyte) havi forgalom mellett annyiba kerül.

Jéézus, na ez egy elég nagy oversight volt részemről, a tierek alsó határát meg se néztem, rögtön csak feltételeztem, hogy egy streameléssel foglalkozó oldal biztos a legtöbb adatátvitelesbe kerül... viszont most, hogy utánaszámolok, nekem bőven 5 petabyte fölé jön ki a havi adatforgalmuk, így kiszámolva:

(314 megabyte * 200000 néző * 24 óra * 30 nap) / 1024^3 byte = 42 petabyte/hónap

Nem tudom most hirtelen, ha most ebben van valami hiba és elég hülye vagyok nem észrevenni, akkor szóljatok, én meg előre is elnézést kérek.

>az bizony 120 terrabyte, amit fél óra alatt, kötött csomagsorrendben kell eljuttatni a 200.000 felhasználóhoz

Ezzel nem értem mi a probléma, az adatátvitel költségével egyenesen arányosan nő a reklámbevétel is, amit alább kiszámoltam.

>nekik nem meglévő tartalmat kell hostolni, hanem dinamikus tartalmat, amiket ugye szintén kötött sorrendben kell fogadni és meg fel kell dolgozni, ütemezni és eljuttatni több szervergépre.

Na akkor ezt egyesével:
kötött sorrendben kell fogadni: Ez gyakorlatilag egyetlen egy plusz nézővel egyenlő adatátvitel, nem sokat számít, mikor több százan nézik az adott streamet.
fel kell dolgozni: Ezért adtam hozzá a plusz egy forintot, benne volt a kommentemben: "Persze adatátvitel mellett tárolniuk és feldolgozniuk is kell a videókat, viszont (forrás nélkül ugyan) ezt nagyjából összesen 1 forintra becsülném."
Gondolj csak bele, neked a saját gépeden egy órányi videó transcode mennyi pénzt fogyasztana? lenne talán 100 W összesen a csak erre fordított áram. Na most persze ennél egyértelműen kevesebbet fogyaszt egy szerverpark videónként, ha egyszer direkt erre van kiépítve és optimalizálva, ezért mondtam, hogy a feldolgozás egy forintnál több nem nagyon lenne.
ütemezni és eljuttatni több szervergépre: Ennek az érdemi része ismételten csak néhány új nézővel egyenlő, ami a szerverek közti adatátvitelt jelentené ugyebár. Amúgy meg, erre most forrást nem tudok hirtelen linkelni, de épp erre a célra fejlesztették ki az Ushernek elnevezett programjukat, ami élőben számítások végez, hogy mindig csak abba a szerverparkba küldjék át a videóanyagot, amiben tényleg szükség van rá—ha mondjuk csak tíz amerikai nézne egy tf2.hu közvetítést, attól még hozzájuk is a mi európai szerverünkről folyna az adat közvetlenül.

>a reklámbevételekre alapozva nem lehet egy szerverparkot megvenni
Ez nem is igaz, meg azt se mondtam soha hogy a szervereiket mind reklámbevételekből vették. A Y Combinator startupokkal foglalkozó cég mindenképp befektető volt a justin.tv indulásakor, és szinte biztos vagyok benne, hogy több befektető is beszállt az oldal kialakításába.

Amúgy a kommentedet nem igazán értem úgy teljes egészében, mintha azt akarnád mondani vele, hogy anyagi okokból a Twitch.tv nem létezhet? Mert amúgy legjobb tudomásom szerint bizonyított tény, hogy a twitch.tv egy létező weboldal.
avatar #11
hello_kitty 2013. szeptember 5. 1633 hozzászólás 197.
Válasz Underyx #9. hozzászólására
Na, utánaszámolok gyorsan neked: az egyik random kiválasztott két órás tf2.hu közvetítés, ami egy aránylag átlagos műsor volt, 480p-ben 627 MB adatot fogyasztott. Ha valaki az Amazon szervereit hsználná ennek az adatnak az átvitelére a http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/ árazása alapján $0.02-be kerülne 1 GB, tehát ez az adás elejétől végéig nagyjából $0.013 lesz. Ha beleszámoljuk, hogy a Twitchnek saját adatközpontja van és nem egy ilyen külön szolgáltatónak a szervereit használják, nyugodtan mondhatjuk, hogy az adatátvitelre ennél a műsornál kevesebb, mint $0.01-t költöttek, tehát most átváltva két forintnál járunk. Persze adatátvitel mellett tárolniuk és feldolgozniuk is kell a videókat, viszont (forrás nélkül ugyan) ezt nagyjából összesen 1 forintra becsülném.

Szóval most ott járunk, hogy a Twitch.tv két óra alatt elköltött 3 forintot arra, hogy egy nézőt kiszolgáljanak. Valószínűleg, aki nem blokkolja a reklámokat, az észrevette, hogy szoktak videólejátszás alatt reklámok megjenneni. A YouTube gyakorlatilag ugyanebből tartja fenn magát, nekik ez alapján a cikk alapján - http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-22/its-getting-harder-to-make-money-on-youtube - ha azt feltételezzük, hogy a videófeltöltőknek nagyjából 30%-ot adnak a reklámbevételükből, egy reklám kiírása $0.0211 tiszta jövedelmet hoz nekik. Ami már eleve több, mint amennyibe a streamelés kerül. Ezt nem tudom pontosan, de feltételezem, hogy 10-15 percenként kiraknak egy reklámot, ami azt jelentené, hogy kb $0.2-t, azaz kb. 40 forintot, vagy inkább a gyengébb reklámrendszer miatt inkább harmincat kereshetnek reklámokból egy 3 forintba kerülő közvetítésen (Ha az adott streamelő kap részesedést, inkább 20 forint körül lehet a bevétel).

Természetesen emellett rengeteg költség van az oldal és a cég üzemeltetése mögött (arról nem is beszélve, hogy én 480p-vel számoltam, magasabb minőséggel pedig exponenciálisan nő az átviendő adat mennyisége), szóvan nincs 1300%-os profitja a Twitchnek, de azért egyértelműen jövedelmező az oldal így is.

tl;dr: 480p-s közvetítés egy órája legrosszabb esetben egy nézőnek kerül kb. 1,5 forintba, és 10 forint jövedelmet hoz reklámbevételekben.


Ja, és még valami: "ilyen kis low szinten ahogy mi streamelünk ingyenes" - épp, hogy a pár tíz nézős kis streamelőknél keresnek számításaim szerint a legtöbbet, hiszen náluk egyrészt alig kell pénzt költeni a videó feldolgozására (a bejövő streamet nem alakítják át más minőségűekre), másrészt pedig a reklámbevételekből csak ők részesednek, nem adnak tovább belőle a kis streamereknek.


(Viszont ne felejtsd el, hogy a Twitchen futó reklámokról sokat nem tudok, hogy hol és mennyit raknak ki, amivel számoltam az csak tipp volt.)
Igen, 5 PETAbyte (5000 terrabyte) havi forgalom mellett annyiba kerül. De ne feledjük, hogy egy átlagos tf2 műsör, 480p, 627mb. És a 720p? Ha most azt tekintjük, hogy ebben a pillanatban uszkve 200.000 ember néz twitchet és csak mindegyikük csak az általad példában hozott mennyiséget tölti le, akkor mindjárt ott tartunk, hogy az bizony 120 terrabyte, amit fél óra alatt, kötött csomagsorrendben kell eljuttatni a 200.000 felhasználóhoz. Sajnos annó a netet nem ilyen természetű adatforgalomra tervezték. És akkor még nem beszéltünk arról, hogy nekik nem meglévő tartalmat kell hostolni, hanem dinamikus tartalmat, amiket ugye szintén kötött sorrendben kell fogadni és meg fel kell dolgozni, ütemezni és eljuttatni több szervergépre. Ha minden jól meg, akkor néhány miliszekundum, de ha egy csomag elvész? Na akkor jön az akadozás, lag és a többi. Szóval nem ennyire banálisan egyszerű a dolog, valamint a reklámbevételekre alapozva nem lehet egy szerverparkot megvenni, üzemeltetni vagy épp szolgáltatótól bérelni.
- Önben testet ölt az erőszakra való hajlam... - Higgye el nem vagyok őrült, a világ az amivel baj van...
avatar #10
Underyx 2013. szeptember 4. 83 hozzászólás 3159.
Válasz hanz1to #8. hozzászólására
Nincs ra ido apafej. Tisztan vilagosan le kell irni a dolgokat egy sorban, mert rohanas van.
És épp ez az amivel problémám van, ezt írtam eleve az első kommentemben is; ha nem jársz utána a dolgoknak, ne szólogass be tudatlanul senkinek és semminek.
avatar #9
Underyx 2013. szeptember 4. 83 hozzászólás 3159.
Válasz Fygaroo #7. hozzászólására
Ha már twitch: az okés, hogy ilyen kis low szinten ahogy mi streamelünk ingyenes, de a "nagy" közvetítések nem fizetnek érte?
Más felől megközelítve: hogyan éri meg a twitch-nek ez a milliós közvetítésszám?
Na, utánaszámolok gyorsan neked: az egyik random kiválasztott két órás tf2.hu közvetítés, ami egy aránylag átlagos műsor volt, 480p-ben 627 MB adatot fogyasztott. Ha valaki az Amazon szervereit hsználná ennek az adatnak az átvitelére a http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/ árazása alapján $0.02-be kerülne 1 GB, tehát ez az adás elejétől végéig nagyjából $0.013 lesz. Ha beleszámoljuk, hogy a Twitchnek saját adatközpontja van és nem egy ilyen külön szolgáltatónak a szervereit használják, nyugodtan mondhatjuk, hogy az adatátvitelre ennél a műsornál kevesebb, mint $0.01-t költöttek, tehát most átváltva két forintnál járunk. Persze adatátvitel mellett tárolniuk és feldolgozniuk is kell a videókat, viszont (forrás nélkül ugyan) ezt nagyjából összesen 1 forintra becsülném.

Szóval most ott járunk, hogy a Twitch.tv két óra alatt elköltött 3 forintot arra, hogy egy nézőt kiszolgáljanak. Valószínűleg, aki nem blokkolja a reklámokat, az észrevette, hogy szoktak videólejátszás alatt reklámok megjenneni. A YouTube gyakorlatilag ugyanebből tartja fenn magát, nekik ez alapján a cikk alapján - http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-22/its-getting-harder-to-make-money-on-youtube - ha azt feltételezzük, hogy a videófeltöltőknek nagyjából 30%-ot adnak a reklámbevételükből, egy reklám kiírása $0.0211 tiszta jövedelmet hoz nekik. Ami már eleve több, mint amennyibe a streamelés kerül. Ezt nem tudom pontosan, de feltételezem, hogy 10-15 percenként kiraknak egy reklámot, ami azt jelentené, hogy kb $0.2-t, azaz kb. 40 forintot, vagy inkább a gyengébb reklámrendszer miatt inkább harmincat kereshetnek reklámokból egy 3 forintba kerülő közvetítésen (Ha az adott streamelő kap részesedést, inkább 20 forint körül lehet a bevétel).

Természetesen emellett rengeteg költség van az oldal és a cég üzemeltetése mögött (arról nem is beszélve, hogy én 480p-vel számoltam, magasabb minőséggel pedig exponenciálisan nő az átviendő adat mennyisége), szóvan nincs 1300%-os profitja a Twitchnek, de azért egyértelműen jövedelmező az oldal így is.

tl;dr: 480p-s közvetítés egy órája legrosszabb esetben egy nézőnek kerül kb. 1,5 forintba, és 10 forint jövedelmet hoz reklámbevételekben.


Ja, és még valami: "ilyen kis low szinten ahogy mi streamelünk ingyenes" - épp, hogy a pár tíz nézős kis streamelőknél keresnek számításaim szerint a legtöbbet, hiszen náluk egyrészt alig kell pénzt költeni a videó feldolgozására (a bejövő streamet nem alakítják át más minőségűekre), másrészt pedig a reklámbevételekből csak ők részesednek, nem adnak tovább belőle a kis streamereknek.


(Viszont ne felejtsd el, hogy a Twitchen futó reklámokról sokat nem tudok, hogy hol és mennyit raknak ki, amivel számoltam az csak tipp volt.)
avatar #8
hanz1to 2013. szeptember 4. 396 hozzászólás 999.
Válasz Underyx #6. hozzászólására
Még az se sejtet semmit, hogy "A webes és mobilos stream összevonásával rengeteg erőforrást spórolnak"?
Leginkább a "rengeteg erőforrást spórolnak" rész az ami azon a bizonyos nem szakmai nyelven összefoglalja a lényeget. Vagy amúgy akár még meg is nézhetnéd a forrást, és elolvashatod, hogy konkrétan mit is csinálnak, hidd el, sokkal világosabb lesz minden.
Sőt, ha hajlandó vagy nagyon messzire elmenni, még akár az új szervereik beüzemelési ütemtervéről szóló bejegyzést is megtalálhatnád a blogjukon (amivel ugyan úgy tűnik késnek, de egyértelműen dolgoznak rajtuk).

De végülis igazad van, sokkal egyszerűbb körülnézés helyett inkább csak úgy csinálni mintha a nyelvezetedbe kötöttem volna bele.
Nincs ra ido apafej. Tisztan vilagosan le kell irni a dolgokat egy sorban, mert rohanas van.
- van az ugy, hogy bebasz a gebasz -
avatar #7
Fygaroo 2013. szeptember 4. 661 hozzászólás 560.
Válasz Underyx #6. hozzászólására
Még az se sejtet semmit, hogy "A webes és mobilos stream összevonásával rengeteg erőforrást spórolnak"?
Leginkább a "rengeteg erőforrást spórolnak" rész az ami azon a bizonyos nem szakmai nyelven összefoglalja a lényeget. Vagy amúgy akár még meg is nézhetnéd a forrást, és elolvashatod, hogy konkrétan mit is csinálnak, hidd el, sokkal világosabb lesz minden.
Sőt, ha hajlandó vagy nagyon messzire elmenni, még akár az új szervereik beüzemelési ütemtervéről szóló bejegyzést is megtalálhatnád a blogjukon (amivel ugyan úgy tűnik késnek, de egyértelműen dolgoznak rajtuk).

De végülis igazad van, sokkal egyszerűbb körülnézés helyett inkább csak úgy csinálni mintha a nyelvezetedbe kötöttem volna bele.
Ha már twitch: az okés, hogy ilyen kis low szinten ahogy mi streamelünk ingyenes, de a "nagy" közvetítések nem fizetnek érte?
Más felől megközelítve: hogyan éri meg a twitch-nek ez a milliós közvetítésszám?
It's a shame we have to die my dear, Noone's getting out of here alive this time...
avatar #6
Underyx 2013. szeptember 4. 83 hozzászólás 3159.
Válasz hanz1to #5. hozzászólására
A felsoroltak kozul nekem egyik sem suggalja azt, hogy azon lennenek hogy ne laggoljon minden masodik embernek. Nekem megy mindig normalisan mellesleg.

Majd legkozelebb szakmai nyelven kommentelek a sok wannabeszakinak, xcuse my language.
Még az se sejtet semmit, hogy "A webes és mobilos stream összevonásával rengeteg erőforrást spórolnak"?
Leginkább a "rengeteg erőforrást spórolnak" rész az ami azon a bizonyos nem szakmai nyelven összefoglalja a lényeget. Vagy amúgy akár még meg is nézhetnéd a forrást, és elolvashatod, hogy konkrétan mit is csinálnak, hidd el, sokkal világosabb lesz minden.
Sőt, ha hajlandó vagy nagyon messzire elmenni, még akár az új szervereik beüzemelési ütemtervéről szóló bejegyzést is megtalálhatnád a blogjukon (amivel ugyan úgy tűnik késnek, de egyértelműen dolgoznak rajtuk).

De végülis igazad van, sokkal egyszerűbb körülnézés helyett inkább csak úgy csinálni mintha a nyelvezetedbe kötöttem volna bele.
avatar #5
hanz1to 2013. szeptember 4. 396 hozzászólás 999.
Válasz Underyx #4. hozzászólására
"A 240p, 360p, stb kategóriák Low, Medium és High kategóriákra változnak."
Nincs is 240p-s transcode, 360p, 480p és 720p felbontásra transcodeolnak csak.

#1 és #2 kommenteket meg egyszerűen nem értem. Miért háborodtok fel olyan dolgon amit nem értetek, hogy hogy működik? Mármint nem azt mondom, hogy baj hogy nem tudjátok mi megy a háttérben, de legalább akkor ne szóljatok hozzá (gondolva itt főleg Hanzora), mert iszonyat hülyén néz ki amikor valakinek egy infrastruktúra-fejlesztésről szóló cikkre az a reakciója, hogy miért nem fejlesztik az infrastruktúrát.
A felsoroltak kozul nekem egyik sem suggalja azt, hogy azon lennenek hogy ne laggoljon minden masodik embernek. Nekem megy mindig normalisan mellesleg.

Majd legkozelebb szakmai nyelven kommentelek a sok wannabeszakinak, xcuse my language.
- van az ugy, hogy bebasz a gebasz -
avatar #4
Underyx 2013. szeptember 4. 83 hozzászólás 3159.
"A 240p, 360p, stb kategóriák Low, Medium és High kategóriákra változnak."
Nincs is 240p-s transcode, 360p, 480p és 720p felbontásra transcodeolnak csak.

#1 és #2 kommenteket meg egyszerűen nem értem. Miért háborodtok fel olyan dolgon amit nem értetek, hogy hogy működik? Mármint nem azt mondom, hogy baj hogy nem tudjátok mi megy a háttérben, de legalább akkor ne szóljatok hozzá (gondolva itt főleg Hanzora), mert iszonyat hülyén néz ki amikor valakinek egy infrastruktúra-fejlesztésről szóló cikkre az a reakciója, hogy miért nem fejlesztik az infrastruktúrát.
avatar #3
DaveLanno 2013. szeptember 4. 1397 hozzászólás 240.
Válasz hello_kitty #2. hozzászólására
Maga az alapkoncepció egy nagy kalap sz@r. Természetes, hogy nem bírják a szervereik, mert minél népszerűbb egy steaming oldal, annál döbbenetesebb méretű adatforgalmat kell bonyolítaniuk. És abból kifolyólag, hogy nem keményen havidíjas a dolog, így egy idő után elfogy a becsült kiszolgáló kapacitás.

Emellett a stream nem megfelelő beállítása és a kliensek letöltési sebessége is belezavarhat a kifogástalan élménybe.
Hmm, lehet akkor full ismerelen noname stream oldalakat kellene kipróbálni? Elvileg azok nincsenek úgy leterhelve, mert kevesebben nézik.
"You think this is a motherfucking game?"
avatar #2
hello_kitty 2013. szeptember 4. 1633 hozzászólás 197.
Válasz hanz1to #1. hozzászólására
Ez aztan sok. Oket sem igen erdekli a teny, hogy minden 2. szemely aki szeretne streamet nezni az nem tud. Laggos szutyok szervereik vannak. Azt kellene inkabb fejleszteniuk, biztosan jutna ra zse.

A kovetkezo kupa meccsunket egy ujabb oldalon probalom majd streamelni, aminek a neve hashd.tv. Direkt link a battlelog profilomnal talalhato (ozone-hanzo).
Maga az alapkoncepció egy nagy kalap sz@r. Természetes, hogy nem bírják a szervereik, mert minél népszerűbb egy steaming oldal, annál döbbenetesebb méretű adatforgalmat kell bonyolítaniuk. És abból kifolyólag, hogy nem keményen havidíjas a dolog, így egy idő után elfogy a becsült kiszolgáló kapacitás.

Emellett a stream nem megfelelő beállítása és a kliensek letöltési sebessége is belezavarhat a kifogástalan élménybe.
- Önben testet ölt az erőszakra való hajlam... - Higgye el nem vagyok őrült, a világ az amivel baj van...
avatar #1
hanz1to 2013. szeptember 4. 396 hozzászólás 999.
Ez aztan sok. Oket sem igen erdekli a teny, hogy minden 2. szemely aki szeretne streamet nezni az nem tud. Laggos szutyok szervereik vannak. Azt kellene inkabb fejleszteniuk, biztosan jutna ra zse.

A kovetkezo kupa meccsunket egy ujabb oldalon probalom majd streamelni, aminek a neve hashd.tv. Direkt link a battlelog profilomnal talalhato (ozone-hanzo).
- van az ugy, hogy bebasz a gebasz -